tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1971383925726802733.post5516848159428900332..comments2023-04-16T01:40:48.403-07:00Comments on The Benevolent Hecklers: God's Sovereignty over the Church's DestinyDaniel (Da Pilgrim)http://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1971383925726802733.post-91426482396257287882011-09-25T19:52:03.363-07:002011-09-25T19:52:03.363-07:00You are right DP.
It is obvious that God works o...You are right DP. <br /><br />It is obvious that God works on human wills in some sense. And it is obvious that God holds us accountable for our own wrongs. What we have to be careful of is human extrapolation in our attempt to solve the paradox too simply.<br /><br />For example, accountability does NOT immediately necessitate that God refrain from complete 24/7 involvement in our wills. That is something we extrapolate. Likewise, God's sovereignty does NOT immediately necessitate the God involves himself 24/7 in our wills. There are excellent theologans on both sides of the fence that can 100% agree in human responsibility and accountability and God's sovereignty over our wills.<br /><br />In saying that, I DO believe that the scriptures are supportive of 24/7 involvement with our wills :) (not just because they support God's sovereignty). But for now I'll keep holding off the hard work of justifying this :D Wait till after exams...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02149662594350828627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1971383925726802733.post-2853018072962598662011-09-07T22:20:44.228-07:002011-09-07T22:20:44.228-07:00doh! I just realised that where I quoted the origi...doh! I just realised that where I quoted the original post it hasn't been put in italics as I wished... Oh well.<br /><br />I agree that there are no verses stating God working on human will 24/7 and it is obvious that He does not stay completely un-involved. (That I know of). I would verge on saying there are verses which state "freewill". God holding us accountable for OUR wrongs, for one point. <br /><br />cheersDaniel (Da Pilgrim)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1971383925726802733.post-65024528983533790222011-09-06T18:09:48.823-07:002011-09-06T18:09:48.823-07:00Excellent question :)
There are no verses explici...Excellent question :)<br /><br />There are no verses explicitly stating that God 'works human wills all the time.' But neither are there any verses stating that humans have free will all the time. (In fact, there are no verses I know of that explicitly state free will at all, but there are definitely verses which state the work of God ON the will).<br /><br />What I said is referring more the the feel of certain passages - what seems to be the point of what they're saying, or the underlying assumption, etc... I think we both agree that this 'feel' leads us to accept the idea of a responsible, self-generated, personal 'free will'.<br /><br />I just gotta finish my assignments and then go find those verses dealing with a more continuous sovereignty over human wills... :) Get back to ya in a wee while...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02149662594350828627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1971383925726802733.post-65262817276873673552011-09-05T23:39:44.297-07:002011-09-05T23:39:44.297-07:00Hey FG,
It is good to discuss :b
Shouldn't yo...Hey FG,<br /><br />It is good to discuss :b<br />Shouldn't you be studying?! lol.<br /><br />In fact, both seem to be present and acting ALL the time in EVERY human (according to some verses). <br /><br />Which verses say that God works human wills all the time?Daniel (Da Pilgrim)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1971383925726802733.post-56696464813617885642011-09-05T14:32:08.615-07:002011-09-05T14:32:08.615-07:00Thanks DP :) I always appreciate your comments, th...Thanks DP :) I always appreciate your comments, they raise good balancing points.<br /><br />JP would definitely say that 'losing individuals whom He desires to save', is in fact a sacrifice - He KNOWS what the outcome will be. And (because He is a personal being) He has a degree of conflicting desires: He wants them to be saved, but knows that everything leading up to and surrounding their 'loss' is in fact the best thing possible for the 'good and delight of His church, in the glory of Christ'.<br /><br />So you're right - God has restricted Himself to forego some of His desires for the sake of pursuing different desires of His. Although I think there is a better way of wording this ;) <br /><br />God has complete sovereignty over what happens, and works for the ultimate good and glory of His purposes. But although He fully delights in His grand plan and set-in-stone outcomes, this doesn't mean He has no sorrow (mixed in with that delight) over some of the steps He choses to take. He has 'restricted Himself' to experience some sorrow, because it is His path toward greater delight.<br /><br />We all find it very difficult, to not simplify the paradox we're talking about. God definitely talks about spontaneous, self-generated, responsibility-bearing, consequence-generating, necessary, human wills. Which we call 'free will'. And He definitely talks about irresistible, heart-changing, destiny-securing, impossible to thwart, responsibility-sparing, necessary, works of God ON human wills. In fact, both seem to be present and acting ALL the time in EVERY human (according to some verses). <br /><br />God help us understand this! So that we can pray and act with a real sense of power and hope in a sovereign God, giving glory to You, while still retaining the excitement and having a sober mind that springs from understanding the individual responsibility everyone has, to choose to pursue You. And may we understand how your love works: in both your sovereignty over our wills, and in the necessity of our personal will to love You in return.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02149662594350828627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1971383925726802733.post-57992663531114453832011-09-04T23:35:21.127-07:002011-09-04T23:35:21.127-07:00I think the same can be said of the sovereignty of...I think the same can be said of the sovereignty of God and human ‘free will’. Just because it is a paradox which may not be completely understood, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t pursue understanding of it.<br /><br />Excellent. Totally agree that we should pursue comprehension.<br /><br />Regarding this summary:<br /><br />It is impossible for God take ‘risks’ since He is absolutely sovereign and knows the outcome of all his activity. Instead, He makes ‘sacrifices’ that will certainly result in the ultimate good and delight of His church, in the glory of Christ.<br /><br />I would agree to a degree. It really hangs on what JP means by "risks". I would say that God takes a risk by opening up "freedom of choice for man" in that on the smaller individual scale He risks "losing" individuals whom He desires to save. All in the name of loyalty with the opportunity to be disloyal or else one cannot have loyalty (I believe).<br /><br />On a large scale picture regarding the church as a whole or even the outcome of the world, our Lord's will reigns. <br />I know the church will not fail simply because God said it wouldn't. I believe He can say that because:<br /><br />1. He has foreknowledge <br />2. He has power to carry it out.<br /><br />I don't think would say the church will not fail with just one of each of these reasons. I don't think He simply "makes" it happen, although He influences it heavily. I also don't think He claims the future just because of passive foreknowledge, because He will build the church Himself.<br /><br />So He can see a potential/plausible (want for a better word) outcome and will work to do it and only He can do it. He planned Jesus before the beginning of the world through His foreknowledge and His plan working together.<br /><br />So I believe on a large scale God does work out history, however what I am trying to say is, is that I don't think God can make "every" alternative ending happen without canceling His stance on desiring a loyal people. Though I admit without Him we cannot become loyal, because we have sinned. Because of Him we can choose Him... yet not "automatically" choose Him. He chooses us first, then we choose Him.<br /><br />If God is restricted in any way it is because:<br />1. He cannot be what He isn't<br />2. He cannot go against what He has restricted Himself to<br /><br />He is sovereign.<br /><br />So He works the future according to these rules. Yes, I do think God does "make" things happen in our lives but not to the extent that He chooses "everything" for us (or in us).<br /><br />hope I have made some sense :)Daniel (Da Pilgrim)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.com